I have just watched one of Joyce’s broadcasts - 40mins - told me to think positively and ‘enjoy life’ - two scriptures out of context - (but she still said true things) - one quote from Irenaeus - followed by the opportunity to make a donation of $100 and they will send me five of her talks.

After reading her material and watching her shows we may refer to her as a false teacher, but I wonder if there is another category she fits into - that of the ‘false brother’ 2 Cor 11:26 (or in this case sister) or of the ‘selfish preacher’ Phil 1:17 - even as I write these categories seem strange.

I feel grieved that people are devoted to Joyce and possibly not hearing repentance toward God and faith in Jesus. Thanks for helping me think through this.

There is quite a large critique of Joyce here:
http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac17.htm

hi again - here is joyce herself on understanding righteousness - starts well and then… seems to go off track and then gets back on again.

what do you think… anyone

http://lightsource.com/Ministry/joyce_meyer_ministries/20080525/

There is quite a large critique of Joyce here:
http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac17.htm

I read the critque, & I would want to spend about as long again critiquing the critique. The points argued against are nitpicky, but have been made into mountains. The critiquer has not understood some of Joyce’s meanings,
eg. even Glenn Davies has argued that no Christian is a sinner. By that he means that the New Testament categorizes people into 2 camps “sinners” and “saints”. You are no longer in the sinner camp when you become a Christian. You still sin, but you are no longer one of those who can be labelled “a sinner”. I am not sure if that is what Joyce meant, but the quote given was OK out of context. It appeared to be heading towards the very negative attitudes that can sometimes prevail from Christian leaders about the value of the flock, because they are unrighteous sinners. Whereas Joyce was wanting to stress the more positive side of have a right attitude about yourself & let the grace of God give you a right self worth. Whether she expresses this adequately is a moot point.

Obviously she justifies her wealth. That is a temptation for many in the position she has.

The argument about stench is a bit trite, but the critiquer has totally missed the Biblical allusion to our odour (which may or may not be picked up by our senses) in 2 corinthians 2.14-16.

I find Joyce has a blend of some good and some not so good teachings. (Who doesn’t?) As with all preachers, the best technique is to check their teaching with the Scriptures to see if they are OK (like the Bereans), reject the bad & keep the good. & if you’re not sure, start a thread on the issue at hand.

Thank you Robert, really helpful and thoughtful answer. I am about the read two of her books and if I come up with anything I will repost

On a more general note Joyce Meyer is a Pentecostal, not sure if she is AOG but she is definitely endorsed by people who are…

So I think a large portion of the gripes a Sydney Anglican may have with Joyce Meyer, are the same theological problems a Sydney Anglican would have with Pentecostalism.
Therefore you may find it useful to look at the differences between reformed protestantism and AOG styled Pentecostalism and the reasons why most Sydney Anglicans are not Pentecostal.

Although I’m sure that you’d find a few theological peculiarities that are unique to Joyce Meyer as well, from my years in a Pentecostal church I always found the preachers were repeatedly making dubious theological asides like ”Angels can’t sin”…
Now admittedly they may not be able to, although that would beg the question why on earth Paul says we are to Judge them in 1 Corinthians, and why Satan is referred to as being and having ‘angels’ (Rev 9:11 and Rev 12:7) Whatever the case my point is that they often made obscure and unfounded theological asides, which taken by themselves were strange and taken as a whole were highly disturbing.

The truth is that there are so many broken Christians out there suffering, guilt, self pity, self loathing, bitterness, anger and many other emotions that are stopping them from accepting themsleves as God sees them and being able to forgive others.

I have problems with Joyce Meyer she has said things on her how that when I researched her claims in the Bible did not add up.  I noted after doing my research these are common teaching of the Word of Faith and Prosperity Doctrince teachers.  Apparently she is very friendly with this crowd and I dare say they have greatly influenced her understanding of the Bible as a result.

Apparently her Ministeries have passed 2 official IRS Audits and she has posted these Audits on her Website.  So if she pays herself so much she can have a mansion here on Earth, apparently it’s all legal. It’s up to the Lord to judge her about her stewardship of what He has given her. 

That said, I think she has tapped into the Self Help Book market for Christians very well.  She offers really good Bible based wisdom for our spiritual or emotional problems.  Her books or tapes are simple to understand and they and Bible based.  Her books are practical as all she does give us an easy to understand set of steps to God’s way opf dealing with Life’s problems.  You know a Dummies Guide to…

The advice is good, so far I have found most of what I have come across based on scripture.  So who would you rather Christians get their Self Help Books from Joyce Meyer or the latest Secular “How to Gaze into your navel and meditate all your cares away”?

Jesus said and so did Paul I think if they are not against us they are for us.

MK 9:38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
MK 9:39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.

Thanks Milica - i think you have helpfully pointed out some positive and critical points. I feel in the end that Joyce has an error of emphasis - her ‘main thing’ is to help people ‘enjoy everyday life’ - I think in the end she reshapes the gospel and this reshaped gospel justifies her own lifestyle. This is typical triumphalist and prosperity pentecostalism. She is like a christian Oprah / Dr Phil but the advice is all about my life today as opposed to the Kingdom. thanks again

Nathan Killick - 14 October 2008 10:05 AM

Thanks Milica - i think you have helpfully pointed out some positive and critical points. I feel in the end that Joyce has an error of emphasis - her ‘main thing’ is to help people ‘enjoy everyday life’ - I think in the end she reshapes the gospel and this reshaped gospel justifies her own lifestyle. This is typical triumphalist and prosperity pentecostalism. She is like a christian Oprah / Dr Phil but the advice is all about my life today as opposed to the Kingdom. thanks again

I can only speak of the TV programs I have watched with my mum when she was into Joyce Meyer some 5 to 6 years ago.  A Christian neighbour taped them for us as she watched her too.  These progams I believe were old even at that time.

Her older programs were based on things like GROWING SPIRITUAL FRUIT. FORGIVNESS, SELF CONTROL, LOVING OTHERS.  These are just a few of the topics I remember her talkinga bout and using appropriate scipture.

I’m not sure what her motives as a preacher are.  Is she just doing this for the money?? If so she is on dangerous ground.  The Bible warns those who Preach for money.

2CO 2: 17 Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God.

I’m NOT defending her current programs I think she must of run out of decent Christian topics to preach on and has moved onto the New Age supposed Christian material now. 

We just got a Digital DVD and through it I can now get the Christian Channel.  Trying it out recently I watched several Joyce Meyer programs, I must admit she has greatly changed her style of presentation, she was interviewing someone which was like a Chat Show Host and I was very disturbed by it.  I can’t comment on ber recent programs but I was told she did recently interviewed Phil Pringle from Australia about his new book.  Now I can’t remember what Charismatic Church he is associated with, maybe someone who read this can tell me. Anyway I watched her a few times but she has seemed to have lost the plot and is more a platform for pushing other Teachers material.

It is very SAD and I know all her wealth is certianly not a help.  As Jesus said to the Rich Young man that came to him.  Not something this young guy wanted to hear, he thought having kept the law was enough but he had to get rid of what was standing bewteen him and GOD as well.

MT 19:21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

MT 19:22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

MT 19:23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

I have to agree her current programs are IFy.  If you gat hold of any of her old material it is fairly good.  I’m not saying perfect but it can be very helpful for Christians dealing with certian problems.  I have only read one of her books and not all the way through, I found her writing style difficult to read.

i saw the interview with Phil Pringle - he is the pastor of Christian City Church in Oxford Falls - I attended there for a few years a long time ago - i am not sure I would say they are false teachers (yet) but I really think they are well on the way - and taking a lot of people with them - many from sydney anglican pews…

Thanks Nathan for that reply.

I’ve heard the name but I not sure where to place him.  So the other guy I whose name I hear every now and then, Bob Houston he must be with Hillsong.  Both of them I have heard are into prosperity teaching and other stuff.  But that is another Thread in itself.

Milica Cook - 14 October 2008 11:31 AM

So the other guy I whose name I hear every now and then, Bob Houston he must be with Hillsong.  Both of them I have heard are into prosperity teaching and other stuff.  But that is another Thread in itself.

Hi Milica,

Thanks for your comments and insights. Regarding Hillsong and Brian Houston, we have had a few threads over the years. The more recent ones are :

Hillsong’s Gospel

Hillsong-The church with no answers

Cheers, Kevin

I think a good test of a preacher is this - are you bored of hearing the same old story? The message should be the same every week. “Jesus died, and rose, and you can be saved because of this”. Same Gospel, every week.

I think there is a certain nobility about caring for people, loving people in their situation; but I don’t think the pulpit is the place to be loving individuals. The pulpit is there to proclaim, and push Christians to change their lives - which flows out to loving individuals. We have the cure for the disease, so we should try and cure, rather than ease the symptoms.

I’m yet to see anyone come to Jesus because they were ecstatically happy about life. They get happy because they found Jesus!

There is a place where it was suggested:

Nathan Killick - 14 October 2008 10:05 AM

Joyce has an error of emphasis - her ‘main thing’ is to help people ‘enjoy everyday life’ - I think in the end she reshapes the gospel and this reshaped gospel justifies her own lifestyle. This is typical triumphalist and prosperity pentecostalism.

The difficulty with triumphalist and prosperity thinking is that it only really works for certain Christians in wealthy developed nations.

Joyce Meyer’s theological focus hardly sounds appropriate or relevant for the Indian Christians still in danger of their lives in the region of Orissa (see this related discussion thread).

TZ.

Tia Zheng - 15 October 2008 01:33 AM

The difficulty with triumphalist and prosperity thinking is that it only really works for certain Christians in wealthy developed nations.

Joyce Meyer’s theological focus hardly sounds appropriate or relevant for the Indian Christians still in danger of their lives in the region of Orissa (see this related discussion thread).

TZ.

John Piper put this in no uncertain terms a couple of years ago…

I recently stumbled upon Joyce Meyer’s 21 Ways To Finding Peace and Happiness on my mum’s book shelf and took it home to have a look for myself.  I haven’t done much more than flick through it since the weekend but the couple of bits I did read were kind of disturbing - there was a distinct theme coming through that God will/can only bless you once you do your part, that God’s overall purpose for our lives is that we be happy, not to mention the whole kind of gnostic premise that there is some deep secret mystery about happiness and peace in the scriptures that Joyce herself is being wise and kind enough to reveal!

MIke Horton from Westminster Seminary California has written a great article analysing what he calls the “glory story” (that particular American-flavoured prosperity gospel which can be tasted in the works of Meyer and others), the case study is Joel Osteen but still well worth a read for those who aren’t sure where or how this genre fits in with or departs from the gospel of Christ.

nic :)