thanks Nic - great stuff - very helpful links too

nk

I know relatively little of Mark Driscoll, having attended neither BYPJ nor the KCC Engage conference this year.

But when I found this little link (Driscoll commenting on the prosperity gospel according to Osteen), I just could not resist bringing it up here. Worth a look.

{N.B. Clip runs for just over 10 mins.}

TZ.

Look I could be judgemental here - but I kinda view Joyce Meyer as marketing marketing marketing. 

I also have the Australian Christian Channel and watch her Enjoying Everyday life show at times and she’s always selling her latest resources such as books, teaching dvds, she also promotes books of other preachers/doctors who come to her show as well - and not at a cheap price. 

If you went to Koorong or Hillsong church there is a whole stack of her resources - more than any other author - massive.

I recently came across a guy named Justin Peters. He did his Master’s thesis on the Word of Faith movement and has developed a series of seminars from it.

There’s an on-line overview of them that is well worth the 30 minutes viewing time - http://www.justinpeters.org/demo.htm.

He focuses on the extreme examples - Benny Hinn, the Copelands et al - and It’s quite disturbing stuff, but it’s easy to see how these false teachings can creep into the messages of those at the softer end of the prosperity spectrum. I think Joyce is heading in their direction.

Allan Dowthwaite - 15 October 2008 10:10 PM

To save cutting and pasting the link, you can click on Justin Peters.

Allan
Thank you so much for that link.  A relative of mine is an avid devotee of Benny Hinn and the Copelands.  I am appalled to think of the false doctrine to which she has been exposed over many years.  I can only hope that God will open her eyes to the horrible truth—and that she will return to the marvellous truths of sound Biblical doctrine.
Bob

Allan Dowthwaite - 15 October 2008 10:10 PM

I recently came across a guy named Justin Peters. He did his Master’s thesis on the Word of Faith movement and has developed a series of seminars from it.

There’s an on-line overview of them that is well worth the 30 minutes viewing time - http://www.justinpeters.org/demo.htm.

He focuses on the extreme examples - Benny Hinn, the Copelands et al - and It’s quite disturbing stuff, but it’s easy to see how these false teachings can creep into the messages of those at the softer end of the prosperity spectrum. I think Joyce is heading in their direction.

I still remember one late night sitting up with a sleepless newborn, where I got to see her bible teaching in full flight. Joyce began reading from the story of Martha and Mary. She read “Martha, Martha, you are worried about many things,” and then proceeded to say “You know, we’re all worried about many things, aren’t we?” and then proceeded to give her own solutions about slowing down, taking time out to relax and “being good to yourself” and so on. She never quite got to the end of Jesus’ sentence about “one thing is needed”.

Michael Allison - 02 June 2008 07:24 PM

Gordon Cheng - 02 June 2008 05:51 PM

Michael Allison - 02 June 2008 05:23 PM

I have a tendency to avoid any ‘Christian’ authors who’s books sport a giant picture of themselves on the front cover.

That’s really quite funny.

I saw that when I read the briefing this afternoon…

Can’t say I like the cover.

At least he isn’t offering me seven keys to abundant living.

Hey — them’s fighting words! Note the operative criticism “giant picture of themselves” — we made sure Peter was off centre, and slightly to the left. (A bit like my politics really).

Just be glad we didn’t stick a hippe headband on him. Hang on, strike that… what a great idea for his next book! “Peace love and mung beans”

Duuuude .... tootally.

Thanks for the link to Justin Peters… I ended up watching that, and about 2-3 hours of other video/text discussing the Word of Faith movement.

I try to discuss the Bible with a few Americans who spend more time listening to death metal than sermons, and it made me realise that the USA has an incredibly different “religious landscape” than we do here. Imagine Hillsong being pushed on the “Christian channel” for the next 30 years; that’s where they are right now. Hundreds of thousands of people have been affected by the various Word of Faith ministries. Little wonder there is so much hostility to the Gospel, where they associate Benny Hinn’s wild stadium experiences to Jesus.

Very informative, and eyeopening.

Leigh Hardwick - 17 October 2008 08:14 PM

Thanks for the link to Justin Peters… I ended up watching that, and about 2-3 hours of other video/text discussing the Word of Faith movement.

I try to discuss the Bible with a few Americans who spend more time listening to death metal than sermons, and it made me realise that the USA has an incredibly different “religious landscape” than we do here. Imagine Hillsong being pushed on the “Christian channel” for the next 30 years; that’s where they are right now. Hundreds of thousands of people have been affected by the various Word of Faith ministries. Little wonder there is so much hostility to the Gospel, where they associate Benny Hinn’s wild stadium experiences to Jesus.

Very informative, and eyeopening.

I came across the Word of Faith (WOF) Movement about 13 years ago.  I have many Christian friends who are in WOF and they are refereed to as WOFers.  I decided after many converstaions with my friends that seemed strange to actually go and find out what these guys teach.  I have over the years taken on various things these guys teach one by one.  Their favourite seems to be Tithing which is linked in with Prosperity Teaching.  The other favourite is Healing because so many people are very sick and desparate, they will buy the material, go to talks or healing meetings and at each onme of these there is always Giving Bucket that goes around and they push their products etc..

Ther are even more disturbing teachings they get into and because the people that listen to them do not know their Bible well enough they are easily convinced by their teachings.  Many fear that if they don’t give enough or pray enough or if they don’t get the next teaching materials they will miss out on God’s Blessings and Answer to their Prayers. 

One thing I have noted is that many (I’m not saying ALL) just do not know the salvation message.  They are not aware that when they repent and receive Jesus as their Lord & Saviour they are saved and recieve the Holy Spirit.  That they can pray to the Lord and He will hear their prayers.  That their sins have been fully paid for by Jesus (by His Blood) on the Cross. 

I could say so much more but what would be the point you got the picture.  I have found the most successful way of sharing what the Bible actually teaches is to spend time reading it with my WOF friends and we discuss it together and praying.  So far I have done that a lot with the New Testament but lately we have been reading the Old Testament together.

Hi Nathan,

You might find http://www.apostasywatch.com useful.
If you click on “Wolves!” on the left of their screen you’ll get a section on Joyce Meyer under “Wolf Reports”.

There’s also a great picture at the top of the “Wolves!” page - I won’t tell you what it is though - have a look for yourself.

Leonie

Leonie Corby - 18 October 2008 03:48 AM

You might find http://www.apostasywatch.com useful.

Hi Leonie,

Thanks for that link. Loved that photo - unfortunately, it’s all so true these days.

I was surprised that there was one name missing from their list - that of Peter Popoff. Now not many folk know about him here is Australia - and the only reason I heard of him was that earlier this year his “Peter Popoff Miracle Ministry” show ‘popped up’ on Sydney’s Channel 9 about 3 or 4am weekday mornings for about a month or so. The highlight of the show was a free offer of a slice of ‘miracle manna’ that they would mail to you - and then you ate a bit each day to help you get your ‘miracle’ - or some such.

Miracle manna

On that page you can also get a free copy of his book “God has promised you DIVINE WEALTH...”
What his site does NOT tell you is this information from Wikopedia :

Peter Popoff (born July 2, 1946) is a German-born U.S. televangelist known as a faith healer. He performs crusade services on national television which include laying on of hands. His ministry is based in Upland, California, and is funded through donations. A widely popular minister in the 1980s, he went bankrupt in 1987 after James Randi andSteve Shaw debunked his methods by showing that instead of receiving information about audience members fromsupernatural sources, he received it through his wife, via an in-ear receiver.[1]

In 2005 he received his own share of “Divine Wealth” with a ‘compensation” ( = salary ) of $628,732, his wife $203,029, son Nickolas $182,166 and daughter Amy $176,290. How simply divine is that ! I’m so glad that they’re not just in “ministry” for the money.

Financial report

Read the Wikopedia article for more details such as this :

Popoff’s shows also featured audience members who were brought on stage in wheelchairs and then rose dramatically to walk without support. Two in particular were celebrities Kyle Ellsworth and Petrina Dy. These were some of Popoff’s most incredible “healings,” but what believing audience members and television viewers did not know was that wheelchairs were used by Popoff to seat people who were already able to walk.[3]

Peter the Wolf ?

Indeed we have been warned :

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves” - Matthew 7:15

Cheers, Kevin

Hey Kevin,

I hadn’t heard of Popoff.  Perhaps people think he is so ridiculous that they don’t even bother to debunk him.

I think what makes Meyer and the like so dangerous is that they do gently and often unobviously (if that is a word) twist the scriptures, so that unless someone does know their Bible well, they don’t know such people are preaching heresy. 

There is a story I read in a book (that’s on my bookshelf somewhere) that talked about training bank tellers to know counterfeit money - they don’t show the tellers counterfeit money, but they teach them everything about the real money, so that when they see something fake, they know it.  This book was saying we need to do the same thing with the Gospel.  If people are that familiar with the Bible, and know the Truth, then they will spot the fakes.

Leonie

Leonie Corby - 18 October 2008 12:23 PM

There is a story I read in a book (that’s on my bookshelf somewhere) that talked about training bank tellers to know counterfeit money - they don’t show the tellers counterfeit money, but they teach them everything about the real money, so that when they see something fake, they know it.  This book was saying we need to do the same thing with the Gospel.  If people are that familiar with the Bible, and know the Truth, then they will spot the fakes.

Leonie

Hi Leonie,

These ‘wolves’ are preying mostly on ‘unsuspecting innocents’ who have minimal dealings with scriptural truths - and not much to do with church attendance, in the main. But any unalert sheep can get fleeced too !

And when our biggest christian bookstores carry hundreds of titles by some of these authors ( books, CDs, DVDs , cards etc ) one does wonder what ever happened to Christian discernment ? And some of them are invited to the stage to speak at some of the biggest Christian gatherings in Australia ! Some even appearing as featured speakers and ‘drawcards’.

Cheers, Kevin

Dark forces at work - less than a dozen people across Australia are responsible for everything you see on christian bookstore shelves. There is a lot less material out there than you’d think.... they have to fill the shelves with something…